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Post by Revolver Ocelot on May 30, 2016 12:36:44 GMT
I'm still undecided, but leaning towards an (ideological) out vote. While the EU has done good things (legislation on the environment and consumer and workers' rights, in particular) have they ever achieved anything that we, as a country, couldn't, if we made our votes count in domestic elections? It shouldn't take the EU for us to demand clean beaches, or fair maternity/paternity leave- or whatever else- in the UK. We should be electing governments that serve us, not relying on EU commissions to protect us from the vultures in our own political class who can use Brussels to pass the buck on big issues. In many respects, the EU is an organisation on a par with the Tories, with a wholehearted focus on neoliberal economics: the push for globalisation (TTIP); the free movement of people to keep wages low; the disparity in wealth between haves and have nots, even between EU members. Look at what's on the horizon for the EU and ask yourself: if we stay in, are things going to get better for us? I don't blame anyone who votes to stay: an 'out' vote will lead to a degree of financial uncertainty that an 'in' vote won't. If you work for a business that exports to the EU, for example, a vote for out puts you at risk in the near future. However, financial predictions for the next five, ten, fifteen years, post-Brexit? They're not worth the paper they're written on. As Turts says, whoever wins, it'll be a victory for scare tactics. I don't trust any of the cunts on either side- politicians, 'business leaders', religious figureheads- but it's easier for us to put metaphorical dog shit through our own lot's doors than it is to post a turd in some EU letterbox. Pretty much sums my thoughts up Dharms. That's not to say I'm definitely voting out either, I've contemplated abstaining as well as an in vote at different times (even in this thread I imagine). It seems that if you're planning on voting out, you're labelled as a xenophobe/racist. When in actual fact most of the people who seem to be leaning that way whom I've discussed it with don't even mention immigration. Obviously there's a section of "Britain First" types about who stain peoples opinions. I trust no one in politics, however what's the point in having our own democratic government and letting a higher power have the final say still? |
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Post by Northy on Jun 1, 2016 14:41:38 GMT
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Post by Salopstick on Jun 1, 2016 19:43:53 GMT
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Post by RickyFullerBeer on Jun 1, 2016 20:07:54 GMT
Incredible that some people genuinely believe the bullshit scaremongering propaganda.
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 2, 2016 9:03:41 GMT
Just the same on both sides, but if it meets people's preconceived beliefs/prejudices call them what you will, it's not bullshit scaremongering propaganda any more but The Truth ;D The Mail and Express have been screaming headline stories about rapist/drug dealing immigrants beating people up/stealing people's council homes for weeks now. They don't apply the same febrile headlines or degree of coverage to, for example, the white convicted drug dealer from Redruth who beat up an ex-marine in an unprovoked attack. Both are scumbags obviously, but one is used for bullshit scaremongering Brexit agenda propaganda and the other doesn't fit so doesn't get anywhere near the same coverage. Same with all the economic scare stories on the Remain side. You have to try to see through the shit. For what it's worth re immigration, I don't see it stopping even if we do leave. The 'white, native Britons' who just won't do the jobs that unskilled migrants do still won't be doing them. Companies have tried recruiting them locally and failed time and time again. Which leaves a big jobs hole, to be filled no doubt by a post Brexit government which decides to allow in immigrants again 'because we have no choice'  I think the same people who voted Tory in 2010 and 2015 believing Cameron when he campaigned massively on an immigration control ticket are now making precisely the same mistake with Boris and the rest of the Leave campaign. They're going to be sadly disappointed, but on the bright side at least they'll still have someone to blame for the country's ills ;D |
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Post by happycarrot on Jun 2, 2016 10:18:51 GMT
If we leave the EU can we still go on holiday there or do we have to go to Centreparcs or get a fly drive to Florida off Ceefax?
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Post by RickyFullerBeer on Jun 2, 2016 11:42:21 GMT
If we leave the EU can we still go on holiday there or do we have to go to Centreparcs or get a fly drive to Florida off Ceefax? Completely banned from the EU if we leave. Not even allowed to look at it or say the name. |
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Post by happycarrot on Jun 2, 2016 12:40:53 GMT
If we leave the EU can we still go on holiday there or do we have to go to Centreparcs or get a fly drive to Florida off Ceefax? Completely banned from the EU if we leave. Not even allowed to look at it or say the name. Mmmmm.......was hoping to go to Parc Asterix but looks like a week in Wallyworld instead |
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Post by Dharma Bum on Jun 2, 2016 12:42:00 GMT
Just the same on both sides, but if it meets people's preconceived beliefs/prejudices call them what you will, it's not bullshit scaremongering propaganda any more but The Truth ;D The Mail and Express have been screaming headline stories about rapist/drug dealing immigrants beating people up/stealing people's council homes for weeks now. They don't apply the same febrile headlines or degree of coverage to, for example, the white convicted drug dealer from Redruth who beat up an ex-marine in an unprovoked attack. Both are scumbags obviously, but one is used for bullshit scaremongering Brexit agenda propaganda and the other doesn't fit so doesn't get anywhere near the same coverage. Same with all the economic scare stories on the Remain side. You have to try to see through the shit. For what it's worth re immigration, I don't see it stopping even if we do leave. The 'white, native Britons' who just won't do the jobs that unskilled migrants do still won't be doing them. Companies have tried recruiting them locally and failed time and time again. Which leaves a big jobs hole, to be filled no doubt by a post Brexit government which decides to allow in immigrants again 'because we have no choice' I think the same people who voted Tory in 2010 and 2015 believing Cameron when he campaigned massively on an immigration control ticket are now making precisely the same mistake with Boris and the rest of the Leave campaign. They're going to be sadly disappointed, but on the bright side at least they'll still have someone to blame for the country's ills ;D Don't think the majority of people involved in the Leave campaign are trying to portray it as a measure to stop immigration completely. What it would do is stop people from entering the UK without a job to go to, which should cut the number of foreign nationals in the UK who can't support themselves and end up homeless or working for unscrupulous employers. I can't see any downside to a future where employers are required to act as sponsors for their overseas workers: it makes businesses more responsible for the people they hire and should also help prevent the exploitation of unskilled workers on low pay. |
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Post by Northy on Jun 2, 2016 12:53:06 GMT
If we leave the EU can we still go on holiday there or do we have to go to Centreparcs or get a fly drive to Florida off Ceefax? You will have to go to Skegness, watching a male tennis tournament with Mr Sausage |
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Post by happycarrot on Jun 2, 2016 13:05:28 GMT
If we leave the Ee still go on holid there or do we have to go to Centreparcs or get a fly drive to Florida off Ceefax? You will have to go to Skegness, watching a male tennis tournament with Mr Sausage Not sure where Skegness is and I hate tennis. Apart from that sounds like a delish time to be had.Is Skegness in the EU and is it visa on arrival? |
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 2, 2016 13:28:54 GMT
Just the same on both sides, but if it meets people's preconceived beliefs/prejudices call them what you will, it's not bullshit scaremongering propaganda any more but The Truth ;D The Mail and Express have been screaming headline stories about rapist/drug dealing immigrants beating people up/stealing people's council homes for weeks now. They don't apply the same febrile headlines or degree of coverage to, for example, the white convicted drug dealer from Redruth who beat up an ex-marine in an unprovoked attack. Both are scumbags obviously, but one is used for bullshit scaremongering Brexit agenda propaganda and the other doesn't fit so doesn't get anywhere near the same coverage. Same with all the economic scare stories on the Remain side. You have to try to see through the shit. For what it's worth re immigration, I don't see it stopping even if we do leave. The 'white, native Britons' who just won't do the jobs that unskilled migrants do still won't be doing them. Companies have tried recruiting them locally and failed time and time again. Which leaves a big jobs hole, to be filled no doubt by a post Brexit government which decides to allow in immigrants again 'because we have no choice' I think the same people who voted Tory in 2010 and 2015 believing Cameron when he campaigned massively on an immigration control ticket are now making precisely the same mistake with Boris and the rest of the Leave campaign. They're going to be sadly disappointed, but on the bright side at least they'll still have someone to blame for the country's ills ;D Don't think the majority of people involved in the Leave campaign are trying to portray it as a measure to stop immigration completely. What it would do is stop people from entering the UK without a job to go to, which should cut the number of foreign nationals in the UK who can't support themselves and end up homeless or working for unscrupulous employers. I can't see any downside to a future where employers are required to act as sponsors for their overseas workers: it makes businesses more responsible for the people they hire and should also help prevent the exploitation of unskilled workers on low pay. When asked, immigration is the number one topic for Leave voters. Bizarre when you think immigrants make a net contribution to the economy. I wouldn't disagree with the comments you raised about job controls, however I wonder how many people will bother to come at all in those circumstances, preferring to go to other countries where free movement is still permitted. Which, while it will probably suit those who just don't want immigrants coming at all, leaves a big hole in our job situation and a big dent in the economy. Interesting article from The Telegraph which puts it more eloquently than I did  Especially pertinent after yesterday's 'points-based immigration' show-stopper from the Leave side. Doesn't have much impact according to that article. www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11832744/Britains-economy-would-be-lost-without-immigration.html |
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Post by Northy on Jun 2, 2016 14:19:58 GMT
You will have to go to Skegness, watching a male tennis tournament with Mr Sausage Not sure where Skegness is and I hate tennis. Apart from that sounds like a delish time to be had.Is Skegness in the EU and is it visa on arrival? Best ask Mr Sausage, he lives there, I'm sure he could smuggle you across the border if needed |
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Post by Northy on Jun 2, 2016 14:22:42 GMT
Don't think the majority of people involved in the Leave campaign are trying to portray it as a measure to stop immigration completely. What it would do is stop people from entering the UK without a job to go to, which should cut the number of foreign nationals in the UK who can't support themselves and end up homeless or working for unscrupulous employers. I can't see any downside to a future where employers are required to act as sponsors for their overseas workers: it makes businesses more responsible for the people they hire and should also help prevent the exploitation of unskilled workers on low pay. When asked, immigration is the number one topic for Leave voters. Bizarre when you think immigrants make a net contribution to the economy. I wouldn't disagree with the comments you raised about job controls, however I wonder how many people will bother to come at all in those circumstances, preferring to go to other countries where free movement is still permitted. Which, while it will probably suit those who just don't want immigrants coming at all, leaves a big hole in our job situation and a big dent in the economy. Interesting article from The Telegraph which puts it more eloquently than I did Especially pertinent after yesterday's 'points-based immigration' show-stopper from the Leave side. Doesn't have much impact according to that article. www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11832744/Britains-economy-would-be-lost-without-immigration.htmlis it really a net contribution? both sides have figures out claiming one way or the other, with the outers saying the cost is £17bn, the remain figures probably only state tax and NI contributions, they don't state housing and living benefits they receive, or the costs in building additional classrooms and hiring extra teachers, doctors and nurses etc. I like the way he says we need to train the Brits to do the jobs, it's not rocket science for a lot of the jobs that are been filled from abroad, I can hardly find a Brit when staying in hotels etc. we need the Brits to be more flexible, maybe they have become too wealthy and lazy or comfortable on benefits,stop paying benefits in cash, start paying it in tokens or something of the ilk. |
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Post by Campervan Von Bigglesworth on Jun 2, 2016 22:21:42 GMT
Why is it so hard to develop a system that rewards people who want to work and penalised spongers??
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 3, 2016 11:13:39 GMT
When asked, immigration is the number one topic for Leave voters. Bizarre when you think immigrants make a net contribution to the economy. I wouldn't disagree with the comments you raised about job controls, however I wonder how many people will bother to come at all in those circumstances, preferring to go to other countries where free movement is still permitted. Which, while it will probably suit those who just don't want immigrants coming at all, leaves a big hole in our job situation and a big dent in the economy. Interesting article from The Telegraph which puts it more eloquently than I did Especially pertinent after yesterday's 'points-based immigration' show-stopper from the Leave side. Doesn't have much impact according to that article. www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11832744/Britains-economy-would-be-lost-without-immigration.htmlis it really a net contribution? both sides have figures out claiming one way or the other, with the outers saying the cost is £17bn, the remain figures probably only state tax and NI contributions, they don't state housing and living benefits they receive, or the costs in building additional classrooms and hiring extra teachers, doctors and nurses etc. I like the way he says we need to train the Brits to do the jobs, it's not rocket science for a lot of the jobs that are been filled from abroad, I can hardly find a Brit when staying in hotels etc. we need the Brits to be more flexible, maybe they have become too wealthy and lazy or comfortable on benefits,stop paying benefits in cash, start paying it in tokens or something of the ilk. Generally immigrants claim less in benefits than do native Brits. I even found a paper on migration watch of all places which said basically migration had a neglible impact one way or the other financially, in which case why worry about it. I agree about Brits just not doing the jobs immigrants do, hence my point about businesses suffering if we vote out and ban immigration. Basically, I don't think we would for that reason and the Leave campaign is being disingenuous about this, realising as I've said all along, that a large proportion of the out vote is simple xenophobia towards foreigners, but they don't mind provided the X goes in the Leave box. In much the same way that Cameron used an anti immigration ticket to get elected in 2010 and 2015. And then did nothing. |
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Post by Dharma Bum on Jun 3, 2016 13:54:33 GMT
Is the debate around immigration purely economic though, Turts? It's as much a social issue as an economic one.
Currently, we get a whole Stoke-on-Trent's worth of new arrivals in the country each year. If we put to one side the 'do immigrants contribute/not contribute' question, that's a huge number of extra people to house, educate, provide medical care for etc. each year. I don't believe we can sustain our current living standards with that level of immigration, let alone improve them.
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 3, 2016 15:40:38 GMT
Is the debate around immigration purely economic though, Turts? It's as much a social issue as an economic one. Currently, we get a whole Stoke-on-Trent's worth of new arrivals in the country each year. If we put to one side the 'do immigrants contribute/not contribute' question, that's a huge number of extra people to house, educate, provide medical care for etc. each year. I don't believe we can sustain our current living standards with that level of immigration, let alone improve them. I suspect that may be the only way we can sustain our current living standards. After all, who comes to this country? Young people who want to work, pay taxes and rent accordingly, take benefits and use the NHS accordingly (which, let's agree, balances out to a negligible cost depending on which or how many sources you choose to read). In other words, those who will enter the jobs market. (Let's also agree to ignore the childish tabloid scare stories about rapists and thugs). As our native British population continues to get older and older, fatter and fatter, stops working and draws more on their pensions and the NHS to treat their ailments, I suspect we may have to rely on young people from abroad to replace this lost section of the jobs market and make a significant contribution to the economy. Really, immigrants get blamed for working in jobs the natives just won't do, like Northy said in his experience of hotels, in other words coming to this country and making a success of themselves. To me, it just smacks of wanting someone to blame for aspects of the country which don't work (pun intended) eg the generational benefit-takers and, as always throughout history, it's immigrants who cop it. That said, and while I think it would be unwise for the UK overall, I kind of want an out vote just to see what will happen! Will Scotland become independent? What will happen to the economy? All these things are more interesting than a Remain vote. Plus, if it does all go tits up I can move with the missus back to Germany  |
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 3, 2016 17:55:11 GMT
Is the debate around immigration purely economic though, Turts? It's as much a social issue as an economic one. Currently, we get a whole Stoke-on-Trent's worth of new arrivals in the country each year. If we put to one side the 'do immigrants contribute/not contribute' question, that's a huge number of extra people to house, educate, provide medical care for etc. each year. I don't believe we can sustain our current living standards with that level of immigration, let alone improve them. I suspect that may be the only way we can sustain our current living standards. After all, who comes to this country? Young people who want to work, pay taxes and rent accordingly, take benefits and use the NHS accordingly (which, let's agree, balances out to a negligible cost depending on which or how many sources you choose to read). In other words, those who will enter the jobs market. (Let's also agree to ignore the childish tabloid scare stories about rapists and thugs). As our native British population continues to get older and older, fatter and fatter, stops working and draws more on their pensions and the NHS to treat their ailments, I suspect we may have to rely on young people from abroad to replace this lost section of the jobs market and make a significant contribution to the economy. Really, immigrants get blamed for working in jobs the natives just won't do, like Northy said in his experience of hotels, in other words coming to this country and making a success of themselves. To me, it just smacks of wanting someone to blame for aspects of the country which don't work (pun intended) eg the generational benefit-takers and, as always throughout history, it's immigrants who cop it. That said, and while I think it would be unwise for the UK overall, I kind of want an out vote just to see what will happen! Will Scotland become independent? What will happen to the economy? All these things are more interesting than a Remain vote. Plus, if it does all go tits up I can move with the missus back to Germany Let's hope it goes tits up then. |
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 3, 2016 20:13:48 GMT
Yes, I could cast a sorry glance at the self-inflicted economic mess from afar, while Germany assimilates migrants, clocks up another budget surplus and pays off its national debt. But at least it would be a patriotic mess and not one that the EU or immigrants had inflicted |
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