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Post by swampsnake on Jun 4, 2016 6:26:32 GMT
Yes, I could cast a sorry glance at the self-inflicted economic mess from afar, while Germany assimilates migrants, clocks up another budget surplus and pays off its national debt. But at least it would be a patriotic mess and not one that the EU or immigrants had inflicted  I read somewhere last week that Germany was in trouble with it's budget surplus for the first time in many years and that France is on it's arse hence the President trying desperately to push through his employment reforms against the backdrop of strikes. Germany's problems have been exacerbated by the influx of migrants and the near collapse of trust in the abilities of Merkel. You might arrive there in time to see the rise of the Right with their good neighbours Austria leading the way Everything to the south has already collapsed despite being in this fabulous institution called the EU. I'm due a visit to the opticians in the next week let me know where you get your rose tinted specks from. Maybe I should have married an EU national  |
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Post by Northy on Jun 4, 2016 7:09:17 GMT
Opposite my hotel in Belfast atm, i wonder why brits dont like jonny foreigners  |
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 4, 2016 9:56:28 GMT
Yes, I could cast a sorry glance at the self-inflicted economic mess from afar, while Germany assimilates migrants, clocks up another budget surplus and pays off its national debt. But at least it would be a patriotic mess and not one that the EU or immigrants had inflicted I read somewhere last week that Germany was in trouble with it's budget surplus for the first time in many years and that France is on it's arse hence the President trying desperately to push through his employment reforms against the backdrop of strikes. Germany's problems have been exacerbated by the influx of migrants and the near collapse of trust in the abilities of Merkel. You might arrive there in time to see the rise of the Right with their good neighbours Austria leading the way Everything to the south has already collapsed despite being in this fabulous institution called the EU. I'm due a visit to the opticians in the next week let me know where you get your rose tinted specks from. Maybe I should have married an EU national If you can show me the relative budgetary positions of Germany, France and the UK to back up your thoughts I might believe you. You can even use the Eurozone as a whole to include those failing nations you mention, we still come off in a worse position overall, so I wouldn't hold out for a collapse anytime soon, at least not in Europe, maybe over here The Austrian far right lost the presidential election didn't they! Not that being president means a fat lot over there but they still lost! While you're in the opticians, ask him/her to recommend a better read as well  |
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 4, 2016 11:55:49 GMT
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 4, 2016 12:10:37 GMT
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 4, 2016 12:37:53 GMT
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 4, 2016 12:54:07 GMT
The tax on alcohol proposed by the Scottish Government. "Holyrood ministers have said minimum pricing was vital to address Scotland's "unhealthy relationship with drink". The court said no. What the fuck gives the right of a non-UK court to rule on matters of health in a sovereign nation. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27219905 |
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 4, 2016 19:33:33 GMT
Don't know whether any of this is true or just more disinformation or counter-disinformation. i.imgur.com/PFp2W76.jpg |
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Post by Dharma Bum on Jun 4, 2016 20:56:50 GMT
Is the debate around immigration purely economic though, Turts? It's as much a social issue as an economic one. Currently, we get a whole Stoke-on-Trent's worth of new arrivals in the country each year. If we put to one side the 'do immigrants contribute/not contribute' question, that's a huge number of extra people to house, educate, provide medical care for etc. each year. I don't believe we can sustain our current living standards with that level of immigration, let alone improve them. I suspect that may be the only way we can sustain our current living standards. After all, who comes to this country? Young people who want to work, pay taxes and rent accordingly, take benefits and use the NHS accordingly (which, let's agree, balances out to a negligible cost depending on which or how many sources you choose to read). In other words, those who will enter the jobs market. (Let's also agree to ignore the childish tabloid scare stories about rapists and thugs). As our native British population continues to get older and older, fatter and fatter, stops working and draws more on their pensions and the NHS to treat their ailments, I suspect we may have to rely on young people from abroad to replace this lost section of the jobs market and make a significant contribution to the economy. Really, immigrants get blamed for working in jobs the natives just won't do, like Northy said in his experience of hotels, in other words coming to this country and making a success of themselves. To me, it just smacks of wanting someone to blame for aspects of the country which don't work (pun intended) eg the generational benefit-takers and, as always throughout history, it's immigrants who cop it. That said, and while I think it would be unwise for the UK overall, I kind of want an out vote just to see what will happen! Will Scotland become independent? What will happen to the economy? All these things are more interesting than a Remain vote. Plus, if it does all go tits up I can move with the missus back to Germany The problem with that model is that it relies on exponential population growth to support an ageing population: what happens 40 or 50 years down the line, when the immigrants who have bolstered the working age population retire or are no longer able to work? Do we import an even greater number of working age immigrants to support them and the wider population? Even assuming that some migrants will retire or return to their country of origin, and that the UK's birth rate will go up as a result of migrants having children in the UK, there'll still be a disparity between the working age population and dependents. The whole thing is like a Ponzi scheme, with each subsequent level of the pyramid growing and growing until it collapses, and what's going to cause the collapse is the UK's population exceeding a level which the country can physically support. We're already reaching breaking point in terms of our domestic food production and water supply, and that's before we mention housing and energy. As I said earlier in the thread, the population is currently growing by roughly a city's worth of people each year- regardless of the economics, it's not sustainable if we want to maintain our current standards of living. Rather than burying our heads in the sand and pretending that we can support an infinite number of people in the UK, we should be looking at alternatives. Specifically, we should be looking increased automation in order to cut the number of low-paid, low-skilled jobs we have (something we should have done post-WWII). This would reduce the amount of working age people required to support industry and agriculture, with the knock on effect of increasing productivity (as an aside, the UK is the world's fifth or sixth largest economy, but only its thirteenth most productive) and making businesses more profitable. While our low productivity isn't immigration's fault per se, having a ready supply of cheap immigrant labour prevents the innovation which would diversify our economy and drive it forwards. Consider the industrial revolution: the Victorian answer to not being able to produce enough yarn wasn't to increase the number of workers, it was to invent a machine which could do the work of multiple workers. If you look at modern British agriculture, with something like asparagus, we've increased yields and extended harvests, we grow it more energy/resource efficiently than ever, but we still rely on humans (mostly Eastern European migrants) to actually pick it because it's cheaper/easier than inventing a machine which can do the same thing better. In my view, it's better to force things to change than accept a status quo which is decidedly shaky. If that means a reduction in immigration, then so be it. |
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 5, 2016 5:28:39 GMT
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 5, 2016 5:38:40 GMT
It's my son and daughter's first ever vote for the referendum. I believe I'll have to take the lad down to the polling booth and show him how to vote |
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 5, 2016 7:31:18 GMT
I suspect that may be the only way we can sustain our current living standards. After all, who comes to this country? Young people who want to work, pay taxes and rent accordingly, take benefits and use the NHS accordingly (which, let's agree, balances out to a negligible cost depending on which or how many sources you choose to read). In other words, those who will enter the jobs market. (Let's also agree to ignore the childish tabloid scare stories about rapists and thugs). As our native British population continues to get older and older, fatter and fatter, stops working and draws more on their pensions and the NHS to treat their ailments, I suspect we may have to rely on young people from abroad to replace this lost section of the jobs market and make a significant contribution to the economy. Really, immigrants get blamed for working in jobs the natives just won't do, like Northy said in his experience of hotels, in other words coming to this country and making a success of themselves. To me, it just smacks of wanting someone to blame for aspects of the country which don't work (pun intended) eg the generational benefit-takers and, as always throughout history, it's immigrants who cop it. That said, and while I think it would be unwise for the UK overall, I kind of want an out vote just to see what will happen! Will Scotland become independent? What will happen to the economy? All these things are more interesting than a Remain vote. Plus, if it does all go tits up I can move with the missus back to Germany The problem with that model is that it relies on exponential population growth to support an ageing population: what happens 40 or 50 years down the line, when the immigrants who have bolstered the working age population retire or are no longer able to work? Do we import an even greater number of working age immigrants to support them and the wider population? Even assuming that some migrants will retire or return to their country of origin, and that the UK's birth rate will go up as a result of migrants having children in the UK, there'll still be a disparity between the working age population and dependents. The whole thing is like a Ponzi scheme, with each subsequent level of the pyramid growing and growing until it collapses, and what's going to cause the collapse is the UK's population exceeding a level which the country can physically support. We're already reaching breaking point in terms of our domestic food production and water supply, and that's before we mention housing and energy. As I said earlier in the thread, the population is currently growing by roughly a city's worth of people each year- regardless of the economics, it's not sustainable if we want to maintain our current standards of living. Rather than burying our heads in the sand and pretending that we can support an infinite number of people in the UK, we should be looking at alternatives. Specifically, we should be looking increased automation in order to cut the number of low-paid, low-skilled jobs we have (something we should have done post-WWII). This would reduce the amount of working age people required to support industry and agriculture, with the knock on effect of increasing productivity (as an aside, the UK is the world's fifth or sixth largest economy, but only its thirteenth most productive) and making businesses more profitable. While our low productivity isn't immigration's fault per se, having a ready supply of cheap immigrant labour prevents the innovation which would diversify our economy and drive it forwards. Consider the industrial revolution: the Victorian answer to not being able to produce enough yarn wasn't to increase the number of workers, it was to invent a machine which could do the work of multiple workers. If you look at modern British agriculture, with something like asparagus, we've increased yields and extended harvests, we grow it more energy/resource efficiently than ever, but we still rely on humans (mostly Eastern European migrants) to actually pick it because it's cheaper/easier than inventing a machine which can do the same thing better. In my view, it's better to force things to change than accept a status quo which is decidedly shaky. If that means a reduction in immigration, then so be it. So, in summary, we are living unsustainably and our capitalist model of making as much profit as cheaply as possible with little regard for the overall human benefit causes these problems. No shit, Sherlock! You're not going to change that by voting out in an EU referendum, nor by blaming people who move to other countries to find work and a better life. I'm not saying you personally are, but the Leave campaign seems to think (and they're probably right since immigration is their number one tactic) that most people think getting rid of the immigrants will 'make this country great again'. They're in for a major disappointment! |
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 5, 2016 7:43:53 GMT
Shifting the goalposts again, Swampy I thought we were talking about budgets! Ask yourself where this youth unemployment comes from. Where did it all start? Why did most countries in Europe adopt a policy of austerity? In response to what global event? Is it really the EU's doing? |
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 5, 2016 7:45:07 GMT
Supporting the views of the far right AFD, Swampy?  |
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 5, 2016 7:58:58 GMT
The tax on alcohol proposed by the Scottish Government. "Holyrood ministers have said minimum pricing was vital to address Scotland's "unhealthy relationship with drink". The court said no. What the fuck gives the right of a non-UK court to rule on matters of health in a sovereign nation. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27219905Dunno, the Tories possibly? |
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Post by Northy on Jun 5, 2016 11:36:59 GMT
Shifting the goalposts again, Swampy I thought we were talking about budgets! Ask yourself where this youth unemployment comes from. Where did it all start? Why did most countries in Europe adopt a policy of austerity? In response to what global event? Is it really the EU's doing? Countries and people in Europe spending beyond their means, letting banks loan out to bad debtors etc.? Shouldn't the EU with its vast amount of staff done something aout it, ensuring countries saved for a rainy day? |
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Post by happycarrot on Jun 5, 2016 15:11:32 GMT
Shifting the goalposts again, Swampy I thought we were talking about budgets! Ask yourself where this youth unemployment comes from. Where did it all start? Why did most countries in Europe adopt a policy of austerity? In response to what global event? Is it really the EU's doing? Countries and people in Europe spending beyond their means, letting banks loan out to bad debtors etc.? Shouldn't the EU with its vast amount of staff done something aout it, ensuring countries saved for a rainy day? Was raining in Germany yesterday, not sure if they'd save up any money though. Was pouring down second half in the Germany v Hungary game, if they'd saved up money for raiiny day then perhaps they could have supplied ponchos for the players or some kind of waterproof hat for the officials. My guess is they spent it all on lederhosen and bratwurst and given the loose change to the 3rd Reich for homeless dogs. Typical Germans with their metal rimmed glasses and sensible coats |
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Post by The Turtle on Jun 5, 2016 17:22:40 GMT
Shifting the goalposts again, Swampy I thought we were talking about budgets! Ask yourself where this youth unemployment comes from. Where did it all start? Why did most countries in Europe adopt a policy of austerity? In response to what global event? Is it really the EU's doing? Countries and people in Europe spending beyond their means, letting banks loan out to bad debtors etc.? Shouldn't the EU with its vast amount of staff done something aout it, ensuring countries saved for a rainy day? At which point you or Swampy would have called it meddling interference by unelected Eurocrats having the gall to tell countries how to manage their own financial sectors. You can't have it both ways, Northy |
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 5, 2016 18:43:10 GMT
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Post by swampsnake on Jun 5, 2016 18:53:41 GMT
Supporting the views of the far right AFD, Swampy? Just pointing out the third biggest party within your preferred country and all within three years you racist. Their next door neighbours France and Austria also exhibiting a healthy swing to the right. |
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