In or out of the EU?

[Orbs]

For what it's worth I'm with the "In" group (at the moment)

Mainly because of "vis unita fortior"

[The Funkasaurus]

I've seen this in various places. Any 'outers' want to try and tell me what is wrong in its content. (I'm currently very much 'in' at the moment)

It's a long one so bear with it:

“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?

Not much, apart from:

providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air;

lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping;

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling;
counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these.

We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value.
We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

The anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

As I wrote in The Prostitute State, over 80% of UK papers are owned by five extremist right wing media billionaires: Rupert Murdoch, (Sun/Times), Barclay Brothers (Telegraph), Richard Desmond (Express) and Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail).

Murdoch is Australian living in New York, Rothermere lives in France, the Barclay Brothers in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes.

So key question is in light of the above list, why have these billionaires for decades tried to destroy the EU's democratic institutions?

Together we can take him/them on and beat him/them.

peace love respect
Donnachadh x

[The Turtle]

Great list and all valid, but will mean nothing to those people who simply want British people making decisions for Britain, regardless. Which I can understand, even if it doesn't bother me especially.

That list of media owners really does show them up for the absolute cunts that they are.

[JonesInAMillion]

Feb 23, 2016 20:55:32 GMT The Funkasaurus said:

I've seen this in various places. Any 'outers' want to try and tell me what is wrong in its content. (I'm currently very much 'in' at the moment)

It's a long one so bear with it:

“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?

Not much, apart from:

providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air;

lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping;

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling;
counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these.

We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value.
We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

The anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

As I wrote in The Prostitute State, over 80% of UK papers are owned by five extremist right wing media billionaires: Rupert Murdoch, (Sun/Times), Barclay Brothers (Telegraph), Richard Desmond (Express) and Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail).

Murdoch is Australian living in New York, Rothermere lives in France, the Barclay Brothers in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes.

So key question is in light of the above list, why have these billionaires for decades tried to destroy the EU's democratic institutions?

Together we can take him/them on and beat him/them.

peace love respect
Donnachadh x

In fairness, some / most / all of that could or would have been achieved regardless if we were in or out of the EU.

I think I'm swayng towards in but that's a bit of of a worry of the unknown type thing, I still think we could achieve more as a nation being out.

[Northy]

I don't mind a bit of diversity, but our capital is now only 48% of white British ethnicity, there's 110000 migrants already heading into Europe this year, 100000 more than this time last year, I want control of our borders, ironic that in Poland they are protesting about mass immigration, 16% of Norway population is now migrants entitled to the same benefits as the Norwegians, and the same in other parts of Europe, we and they have hundreds of years of history of building the country, our forefathers and families hardships but all contributing, just so thousands from countries who didn't can come and start taking out of the pot, which thanks to Brown and Blair is empty.
If getting control of our borders properly means out, I'm out.
We used to trade with Europe before the EU, and we import more than we export to them, they will still want to trade with us, we can open up our own trade with the rest of the world quicker than Europe will let us at the moment

[Campervan Von Bigglesworth]

Of course if there is an out vote them cheeky jocks will be asking for independence as they will probably want to stay in! That's a kerfuffle alright

[The Turtle]

Feb 24, 2016 7:59:58 GMT Campervan Von Bigglesworth said:

Of course if there is an out vote them cheeky jocks will be asking for independence as they will probably want to stay in! That's a kerfuffle alright

Dave could oversee the exit from Europe and the break up of the UK. Quite some legacy for a PM!

[swampsnake]

Feb 24, 2016 7:59:58 GMT Campervan Von Bigglesworth said:

Of course if there is an out vote them cheeky jocks will be asking for independence as they will probably want to stay in! That's a kerfuffle alright

There's an interesting point here. If the UK votes out and Scotland gets independence then they won't be allowed to join the EU. This was spelled out by the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats during the Scottish independence vote or was it bullshit part of project fear

Personally the best thing that could have happened was Scottish independence and then England could have had a grown up relationship with Scotland instead of the constant bickering and resentment towards Westminster.

[starkiller]

Feb 24, 2016 8:08:51 GMT The Turtle said:

Feb 24, 2016 7:59:58 GMT Campervan Von Bigglesworth said:

Of course if there is an out vote them cheeky jocks will be asking for independence as they will probably want to stay in! That's a kerfuffle alright

Dave could oversee the exit from Europe and the break up of the UK. Quite some legacy for a PM!

Very much no fan of Cameron or politicians but you're not actually saying, 'how dare the people have a say?'

It won't be Cameron breaking it up, it will be a decision of people.

That's if it's not rigged, of course.

[swampsnake]

Feb 23, 2016 23:02:33 GMT JonesInAMillion said:

Feb 23, 2016 20:55:32 GMT The Funkasaurus said:

I've seen this in various places. Any 'outers' want to try and tell me what is wrong in its content. (I'm currently very much 'in' at the moment)

It's a long one so bear with it:

“What did the EU ever do for us?
The anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

In fairness, some / most / all of that could or would have been achieved regardless if we were in or out of the EU.

I think I'm swayng towards in but that's a bit of of a worry of the unknown type thing, I still think we could achieve more as a nation being out.

Don't burst his bubble I like Funky he's nice

[swampsnake]

Feb 23, 2016 23:02:33 GMT JonesInAMillion said:

Feb 23, 2016 20:55:32 GMT The Funkasaurus said:

I've seen this in various places. Any 'outers' want to try and tell me what is wrong in its content. (I'm currently very much 'in' at the moment)

In fairness, some / most / all of that could or would have been achieved regardless if we were in or out of the EU.

I think I'm swayng towards in but that's a bit of of a worry of the unknown type thing, I still think we could achieve more as a nation being out.

Don't burst his bubble I like Funky he's nice

[swampsnake]

Here's one for Sausage.



www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35648212

[swampsnake]

Feb 24, 2016 8:08:51 GMT The Turtle said:

Feb 24, 2016 7:59:58 GMT Campervan Von Bigglesworth said:

Of course if there is an out vote them cheeky jocks will be asking for independence as they will probably want to stay in! That's a kerfuffle alright

Dave could oversee the exit from Europe and the break up of the UK. Quite some legacy for a PM!

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, an out voter, a few days ago and the subject of Dave and his referendum came up. His biggest gripe among many is the regulation and red tape. His business has been affected by regulation this particular one regarding glass and it's cost him £000s. The consensus between us was this. There were two possible outcomes for the Conservative party in the election which would lead to them being the largest party seeking coalition or alternatively the second largest party out of government.
To get the maximum number of votes and to counter UKIP he needed to offer the referendum he knew he couldn't deliver. In another coalition the Libdems wouldn't allow it. Imagine his shock on the outright victory. Yougov normally very, very reliable could

Love him or loathe him he fought tooth and nail to keep Scotland in the UK during project Independence fear

[swampsnake]

Feb 23, 2016 18:23:57 GMT The Turtle said:

Stafford stokie posted his views on here of his own free will long before I brought him into the conversation! The fact that they happen to back up precisely what I said about some people's views on Europe and whether to stay or not you've conveniently ignored.

Earlier you complained that I was bringing immigration into the in out debate when it was a separate issue. To quote: "its a shame that you now have to try and bring immigration into it which is an entirely different question". I've just showed you that it isn't, its well up there in the out voters reasons for wanting to leave.

Isn't the reality the fact that you, as a probable out voter, don't want to be associated with such sentiments since they're probably not your reasons for voting to leave and are very much of the xenophobic variety! Perfectly understandable but doesn't invalidate anything I said. Immigration and the 'them and us' aspect are at the very heart of the out campaign, whether or not you acknowledge it, choose to admit it on here or want it to be false!

Yougov is one of the main polling companies in the UK.

I hope you enjoyed your run

Mmmm Stafford Stokie so you keep quoting one poster as a good sample to back up this view you've been peddling. Immigration is part of the issue of control and sovereignty for many people including some that on balance may vote in. You seem to be unable to be able to distinguish the difference between those legitimate concerns those people might have and them being racist. You're obviously intelligent therefore on balance I believe that you're being disingenuous.

I know what Yougov is I don't know whether it has any political persuasion

I'm not telling you which way I'm going to vote save to say that my very first vote was to join the Common Market.

[Campervan Von Bigglesworth]

Feb 24, 2016 8:49:09 GMT swampsnake said:

Feb 24, 2016 8:08:51 GMT The Turtle said:

Dave could oversee the exit from Europe and the break up of the UK. Quite some legacy for a PM!

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, an out voter, a few days ago and the subject of Dave and his referendum came up. His biggest gripe among many is the regulation and red tape. His business has been affected by regulation this particular one regarding glass and it's cost him £000s. The consensus between us was this. There were two possible outcomes for the Conservative party in the election which would lead to them being the largest party seeking coalition or alternatively the second largest party out of government.
To get the maximum number of votes and to counter UKIP he needed to offer the referendum he knew he couldn't deliver. In another coalition the Libdems wouldn't allow it. Imagine his shock on the outright victory. Yougov normally very, very reliable could

Love him or loathe him he fought tooth and nail to keep Scotland in the UK during project Independence fear

Presumably your friends is hoping for more transparency....

[RickyFullerBeer]

Watch out for them blacks, I say!

[Campervan Von Bigglesworth]

I bet they are loving it! Thanks to the Islamics and the Romanians, the blacks are positively "one of us" now!

[Northy]

Feb 24, 2016 8:49:09 GMT swampsnake said:

Feb 24, 2016 8:08:51 GMT The Turtle said:

Dave could oversee the exit from Europe and the break up of the UK. Quite some legacy for a PM!

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, an out voter, a few days ago and the subject of Dave and his referendum came up. His biggest gripe among many is the regulation and red tape. His business has been affected by regulation this particular one regarding glass and it's cost him £000s. The consensus between us was this. There were two possible outcomes for the Conservative party in the election which would lead to them being the largest party seeking coalition or alternatively the second largest party out of government.
To get the maximum number of votes and to counter UKIP he needed to offer the referendum he knew he couldn't deliver. In another coalition the Libdems wouldn't allow it. Imagine his shock on the outright victory. Yougov normally very, very reliable could

Love him or loathe him he fought tooth and nail to keep Scotland in the UK during project Independence fear

I have a similar problem

We have
the EU Emissions Trading Scheme
The EU energy efficiency directive, Energy Savings Opportunity Sschem
The EU Energy performance of buildings directive
The UK Carbon reduction Scheme

We have had to take on an extra person in our small group this week just to cope with all the admin for all the schemes that could come under 1

It's a fookin shambles

[The Turtle]

Feb 24, 2016 8:34:06 GMT swampsnake said:

Feb 23, 2016 23:02:33 GMT JonesInAMillion said:

In fairness, some / most / all of that could or would have been achieved regardless if we were in or out of the EU.

I think I'm swayng towards in but that's a bit of of a worry of the unknown type thing, I still think we could achieve more as a nation being out.

Don't burst his bubble I like Funky he's nice

Ah, could have happened and would have happened beats did happen does it Is this Fantasy Independent UK parliament game or something!

[The Turtle]

Feb 24, 2016 8:26:20 GMT starkiller said:

Feb 24, 2016 8:08:51 GMT The Turtle said:

Dave could oversee the exit from Europe and the break up of the UK. Quite some legacy for a PM!

Very much no fan of Cameron or politicians but you're not actually saying, 'how dare the people have a say?'

It won't be Cameron breaking it up, it will be a decision of people.

That's if it's not rigged, of course.

No. Of course I'm not saying that. I'm speculating as to what potentially could happen if Scotland votes in and the rest of the UK votes out. Which incidentally is pretty much the reverse of what happened in 1975.

BTW, I didn't think the people had any say in matters since governments do what they're told to create the NWO?